Midsomer Murders (TV Series) Blood on the Saddle (2010) User Reviews

The worst? No way!

[wmoore1 · 7/10 · 13 August 2016]

The worst? No, I don't think so. I thought it was one of the funniest episodes, and I liked that. The series has gone from being "son of Agatha Christie mysteries" in the initial episodes based on the Graham books through, what seems to me, an attitude of "let's keep the franchise fresh for all involved." So, we get episodes involving the supernatural, sometimes rather chilling and sometimes rather humorous, episodes with what I'd call a happy ending, and some that end like life not so happily.

This episode, once the Wild West Theme was settled on, is a rather funny one. There are four murders, but the tone is light and fanciful. The guitar twangs tell us we're in the territory of "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly," the setting is out of "Annie, Get Your Gun," and Barnaby fails at every attempt to win the prize at the shooting gallery or dunking the witch. His wife Joyce wins both prizes, and when Ben Jones (Jason Hughes) show up, he becomes the object of humor with pratfalls n the mud and falling ash from a chimney. The jokes continue into the scenario: the killer checking Barnaby;s eyes and asking, like Olivier in The Marathon Man," "Is it safe?"; the horse carrying the dead cowboy into town, to the final shoot-out at the OK Corral, when the characters seen through the killer's demented gaze all become characters in a Hollywood western.

The episode was a lot of fun, not the best of "Midsomer Murders, but I don't think any of the many episodes in the 15 seasons I've watched plumb the depths. The score card is pretty high for me, and I don't consider this episode the worst. The funniest, maybe.,

Silly but fun!

[Tweekums · 7/10 · 8 September 2010]

As this episode opens a lone horseman enters a peaceful English village and hitches his horse to a bench before entering a cottage, a shot rings out before a woman runs into the street screaming 'murder!' This being Midsomer that isn't anything to be surprised about, what is surprising is that DCI Barnaby isn't on the case instead he as gone to the local Wild West show with his wife. There entertainment is curtailed however when somebody is shot in public. The victim was a woman who was having an affair with one of the participants in the show. He is briefly a suspect but when he too is slain it looks as though the motive for the crimes was a piece is disputed land which two men claim to own and a Gypsy wants to buy. In what follows Barnaby and his trust sidekick Sergeant Jones must find out which of the various suspects, and there are many of them, is guilty. As to why the first 'murder' wasn't investigated... you'll just have to watch and see.

This episode was pretty silly even by the standards of 'Midsomer Murders' that said the mystery was fun enough and there were almost as many murders as there were laugh out loud moments. The ending was one of the most ridiculous yet with the killer believing he really was in the wild west; we even saw the scene from his perspective where the farm was replaced by a frontier town and Barnaby's suit replaced with period costume! As always John Nettles was great as Barnaby as was Jason Hughes as his put upon sergeant. The guest stars who included Caroline Langrishe, Pip Torrens and Daniel Ryan were also pretty good. Overall if you want a decent mystery with plenty of laughs you should enjoy this but if you want a realistic portrayal of policing in modern Britain steer well clear.

lost interest

[blanche-2 · 6/10 · 1 August 2015]

The Midsomer area and the Wild West - a contradiction in terms.

This episode was confusing and not interesting. There is a wild west show in Ford Florey, where a woman named Faye Lennox is murdered. She was the lover and also managed the estate of one Jack Fincher. Fincher and his neighbor, Silas Burbage, have been fighting over a piece of land for years. Fincher dies soon after Lennox

A lot of suspects, of course: Susan Fincher (Caroline Langrishe), her stepson Leo, Dan Malo, who wants the land as well, Mary Morgan, whose dog was shot by Fincher, and Jude Langham, who blames Fincher for his father's death.

Langham says that he has the document that shows the ownership of the land. He calls all the parties interested, but then he is attacked.

There's another murder before Barnaby figures it all out.

Badly put together script, and the land kind of gets lost in the whole intrigue. Personally I don't know what Barnaby and Joyce were doing there Always wonderful to see Caroline Langrishe, who was in Lovejoy and Chancer. Cowboys in Ford Florey - who would have believed it.

Decent enough episode.

[poolandrews · 6/10 · 13 September 2010]

Midsomer Murders: Blood on the Saddle is set in the Midsomer village of Ford Florey, during a Wild West show a woman named Faye Lennox (Emma Cooke) is shot dead. DCI Tom Barnaby (John Nettles) & DS Ben Jones (Jason Hughes) are already at the show but jump into action, Faye was shot with a sniper rifle from a fair distance away. Investigating Faye's background Barny discovers that she was the lover of local farmer Jack Fincher (David Rintoul) who has a long standing dispute with neighbouring farmer Silas Burbage (Malcolm Storry) over the ownership of a piece of waste land. The following day Jack Fincher is found dead having been lassoed & dragged by a horse, there are several suspects from greedy lawyers to cheated wives but this will be far from an easy case to solve...

Episode 3 from season 13 this Midsomer Murders mystery was directed by Richard Holthouse & is a decent enough episode but that's about the best I can say about it, to be honest if it wasn't for some colourful Wild West scenery & a unique method of murder to the series I would have a hard time calling Blood on the Saddle anything other than average. I used to like the earlier seasons of Midsomer Murders because of the unique, dark & twisted motives & methods of murder while the later seasons seem to stick to standard murder mystery plots & motives like jealousy & here plain old money. While Blood on the Saddle isn't terrible at all I just didn't think it was any sort of Midsomer Murders classic, it's rather tame, the character's are forgettable sleazy lawyers, angry spouses, unfriendly rivalry & an optician that lack any personality although there are quite a few suspects to choose from. The only memorable aspect of Blood on the Saddle is Wild West aspects, the sight of a cowboy complete with shotgun riding a horse into the quaint English village of Ford Florey to twanging guitar music is an image that is at odds with each other, the way Jack Fincher is murdered by being dragged behind a horse is a novel death & the climax features the killer in a Wild West fantasy who thinks their Billy the Kid & Barnaby is Wyatt Earp with the perspective constantly changing between the old Wild West & Ford Forley. At 90 odd minutes the plot is fairly deep although quite easy to follow, sub-plots about someone having a letter that proves who owns the land & a bunch of gypo's who want to buy it don't really go anywhere.

It's nice to see a fairly high body count, there are four murders in Blood on the Saddle including two shootings & someone stabbed with a bowie knife. The scenery is nice enough as usual but that American country style guitar twanging music is really annoying. The acting is fine as always, the regulars are as solid as normal.

Blood on the Saddle is a reasonable enough Midsomer Murders episode, the money based motive is rather plain although the body count is quite high & it's watchable enough but just not amongst the show's best.

Silly but fun

[boxyfella · 6/10 · 19 October 2021]

The first time I saw this I wasn't too impressed, particularly with the wild west shootout sequence as seen through the eyes of the villain, but upon repeated viewing I realise it's actually a lot of fun. John Nettles clearly enjoyed himself playing cowboys.

The whole thing had the feel of one of the episodes from the John Barnaby era, with a village having a particular obsession. And for once, the killer's motivation (or at least that of his accomplice), makes sense. Kenneth Cranham and Malcolm Storry are superb as Jude Langham and Silas Burbage. And I loved the pig at the Langham place, so cute. Those were the good things.

On the downside, DC Stevens is given virtually nothing to do. And it seems very out of character for Jones not to pursue the matter of Leo's dangerous driving. He has ample chance at the fairground to arrest him but seems to have forgotten all about the incident, even before his mind is preoccupied with the shooting. And how does receiving a bullet in the post cause Barnaby to realise who the culprits are?

Fun with Guns!

[ummajon2003 · 6/10 · 1 June 2016]

Aha! In last episode's review, I mentioned how odd it was that the detectives never had guns. Well, now, then this episode features a scene where Jones and Barnaby are being held at bay by a gun wielding maniac and what does Jones say but "We have nothing to defend ourselves with!" Yeah, I thought so. Luckily, he finds a gun but it only has blanks...still, he's shooting the thing in style! And then not only are we treated to a full on Wild West showdown in traditional 19th century costume with Barnaby in his cowboy boots and mustache--but then Jones, as we flash forward (back?) into the present day--shoots a real bullet !

Other than that, it was a bore of an episode with dull characters and plot over land and inheritance.

One thing I noticed is that Stevens keeps forgetting to button the second to top button on her top (get that?). What with the male detectives all tied to the tip of their necks, it's sad that she keeps forgetting, why hasn't anyone mentioned this to her yet? *

Ta !

*sarcasm

Why all those Confederate flags?

[kmatlack · 1/10 · 31 March 2015]

Other reviewers have said everything I would have said about how truly awful and pointless this episode of Midsomer Murders is so I won't beat a dead horse(!). Just to say what a disappointment it was to try to watch such a bad production when Midsomer Murders is usually so top notch--acting, location, stories.

What I'm wondering, as an American, is why the producers of this episode would think that Confederate flags would be flown anywhere--past or present--in the western United States? The Civil War was between the North and South, not the East and West. I've lived in the American west my entire life and the Confederate flag is not a part of it's history or culture. There's not a single one of them to be seen at parade's or rodeo's here.

Ride 'em, cowboy!

[abizmom · 8/10 · 26 January 2019]

This episode is really entertaining. The cowboy theme and nods to wellknown Western movie tropes is well observed. It's also a study on the blurring between fantasy and reality and what can go wrong when an interest becomes an obsession. The denouement stand off at the Midsomer Corral is seen through the eyes of the villain to great effect - he has detached from reality and it's chilling. And you get to see Barnaby as Wyatt Earp! What's not to love!

Holes in script, but still ok

[vitoscotti · 6/10 · 26 February 2020]

This episode I give credit for at least they try not to get stuck in a cops and bad guys rut. The wild west theme done by Brits was clever. I like they're not prisoners to PC. They aren't scared to show the confederate flag.

Lots of head scratchers. Joyce seems more upset by the ice cream spill than the witch buying the farm. No known land owner? Who paid tax on it? All these years and it's never been settled? Why don't Barnaby & Jones block Silas Burbage's vehicle in with theirs when he flees? Jones has a loaded weapon at the duel, but not in the house to defend the three?

There's always going to be script inconsistencies, but there might have been too many here. Caroline Langrishe as Susan Fincher was enchanting. Marvelous Emma Cooke as Faye Lennox got whacked way too early. Vito S. 2-25-20

Worst so far

[sornum · 4/10 · 13 May 2023]

It's 2023 and I'm admittedly late to the "Midsomer Murders" party. I'm binge watching the series and will likely stop once John Nettles' time in the series ends. All that to sum up where my perspective is coming from on this episode: Worst. Episode. Yet. I will say it was hilarious, in a "they have officially jumped the shark" way, to see Nettles with a Wyatt Earp mustache, having a duel with the deluded killer. I understand they need to keep coming up with more interesting ways to showcase a murder mystery, but this was just bad. Someone else rightly stated that the Confederate flag had no business in the portrayal of the American Old/Wild West. As opposed to another reviewer, I did not find that offensive, just poorly researched. I also was frustrated by the poor police work, and all the plot holes. It took them forever to figure out that the symbol on the necklace was the zodiac sign for Leo. It's called the Internet and a search engine. Both existed in 2010-2011!

I liked it

[solonche-637-153706 · 8/10 · 6 May 2021]

I've been hoarding some John Nettles episodes to watch when Dudgeon etal make me too crazy. (I do like Gwilym however).

Pretty typical with the population of Midsomer dwindling some more, but I like the humour of Tom, Joyce and Ben. Joyce doesn't get many lines, but they always satisfy.

I especially liked the little 'Old West' snippets. Adds to the fun.

Anyway it's good to see Tom again, the better Barnaby.

History wrong, forensics sloppy, legality wrong, morality questionable, plot pedestrian.

[chart17629 · 1/10 · 6 July 2020]

Normally I watch Midsomer Murders and accept what goes on - the flaunting of search warrants, the just-got-there-in-the-nick-of-time endings, the motives going back 2 or 3 or 30 generations, the generous use of a nutter as the culprit, and all the other "this is surely fantasy policing in fantasy settings" habits of the show, large and small. Through 12+ series, I have only thought one or two episodes less than 7 stars.

Blood on the Saddle, however ...

The Stars and Bars represent the American South, NOT the American West. Aside from Texas, no other western state was in the CSA. By the time and place of Billy the Kid (~1875-1881; AZ & NM) virtually no one was flying that banner. The historical research seems to have been limited to those 50's Western movies where the hero was some dislocated Johnny Reb. Lazy and stupid and all the more so since it seems there may have been actual research effort regarding the USA flags displayed. They appear to have 45 stars, as was accurate in 1896.

Barnaby gets a bullet in a hand delivered post and immediately puts his prints all over the shell and the envelope. (Though admittedly this disturbance of evidence is SOP for all Causton police.)

Barnaby bursts in on a man CHOKING A WOMAN AGAINST A WALL. After grabbing him away from the assault, rather than cuff and caution the man Barnaby favors the gent with an intervening bear hug and a kindly, "No, that's enough." Disgusting. Then he begins to say "If she wants to press charges ..." before the man interrupts. Wrong. A Detective Chief Inspector witnessed a brutal assault. There is no need for any sort of victim's consent to press charges. The WITNESSING DETECTIVE CHIEF INSPECTOR has all the necessary authority to arrest. Again, disgusting.

Later, Barnaby lets someone else off with a simple caution for "threatening behaviour, inappropriate sexual conduct, (and) drunken charge" concerning a separate assault. The disgust here gets ratcheted up a notch since it's THE SAME WOMAN in both assaults. Apparently, if you're female, you have to wait to get killed before Tom will look to bring your assailant to justice.

Oh, and one more thing about the history. Billy the Kid's legal "nemesis" was Pat Garrett. Good grief, their names formed the title of a popular 1973 Western. Wyatt Earp was probably never within 500 miles of Billy.

All of which pulled me far, far away from any suspension of disbelief. Not to worry though. The script fairly shouted the killer's identity before the first hour was up, so there wasn't much disbelief to suspend. And the motive was so mundane it made all that time watching the bad history, bad procedures, and horrific judgment even less worthwhile.

Again, I've had no weighty complaint for close to 70 episodes. I've enjoyed and been, mostly, entertained. But those flags were just the Laziest Production and the misogynist policing so gratuitous ...

So so bad

[stephjones-35526 · 1/10 · 6 September 2020]

No. Just no. Absolute nonsense. Playing off the theme of an old American western was just not a good idea.

Well and truly dunked

[TheLittleSongbird · 2/10 · 21 February 2017]

As has been said by me a number of times, 'Midsomer Murders' is one of my most watched and most re-watched shows. It is nowhere near as good now and the Tom Barnaby-era wasn't alien to average or less episodes, but when it was on form or at its best boy was it good.

'Midsomer Murders' has a number of classics and a larger number of solid episodes (with a few average ones, mostly in the show's middle period particularly Seasons 10-13), but once in a while the Tom Barnaby-era has mediocre episodes and even less. "Blood on the Saddle" is to me and many others one of the worst 'Midsomer Murders' episodes, have seen all the episodes to date (and re-watched) and "Blood on the Saddle" is a bottom 10 (even bottom 5) episode.

There are saving graces, always look for redeeming qualities in films, shows and episodes that are bad and have yet to see an irredeemable 'Midsomer Murders' episode. John Nettles, Jason Hughes and Jane Wymark do what they can with their roles, still enjoy Barnaby and Jones' chemistry (though it has been much better written in other episodes) and Wymark brings some charm and humour. "Blood on the Saddle" is a rare case of the supporting cast disappointing on the whole, but Richard Harrington and Caroline Langrishe are good.

As always, the music fits perfectly, with some lush jauntiness and sometimes an ominous quality. The theme tune one of the most memorable and instantly recognisable of the genre.

However, "Blood on the Saddle" is a rare case of the production values and most of the acting not impressing. The scenery is lovely, but elsewhere the episode looks garish and dull and there is a lack of the gritty and idyllic look seen in 'Midsomer Murders' usually. Not everybody comes off badly but most of the acting sees the actors seeming to not know what to do with their roles. Daniel Ryan in particular overacts dreadfully in a cast full of ham and blandness.

The script is plodding and sketchy, and when it comes to the humour the gentle touch is replaced by an over-the-top farcical nature that indicates the show having lost its maturity. The characters are both lifeless and over-the-top, and the pacing both dull and cluttered. The story is a complete mess, pastoral village life and the Wild West just don't mix while everything just suffers from over-obviousness, convolution, an uncomfortable overdose of ridiculousness and too many characters and situations that don't amount to much and are not delved into properly. The ending, even for what they were trying to do, is like a cartoonish parody and really feels out of place in the show, definitely feeling like it belongs somewhere else entirely.

Overall, a 'Midsomer Murders' low-point. 2/10 Bethany Cox

They got this one badly wrong

[Sleepin_Dragon · 2/10 · 8 August 2015]

Around this time they were making a few average episodes, but this one ranks as one of the show's worst. I cannot decide if this one, or Night of the Stag is the winner of overall worst episode. Everything about this episode stinks, hideous direction, some over the top acting, horrid imagery and a totally loose plot with more holes in it then a colander. It gets a 2 rather then a 1 because I enjoyed Richard Harrington's performance, when he's bumped off in that stupid way it really does fall apart. Even the normally very good Daniel Ryan fails to do anything here, he overacts and towards the end totally loses the plot. My interest lasted 20 minutes, the remainder was painful to watch, the switching between present day and old USA was shockingly bad, Adam Burbage should have shot them all dead in minutes, it made absolutely no sense. If you can get to the end and enjoy you have great staying power. Every conceivable gypsy cliché is played out here too. I can't see how anyone could sit through this and enjoy it. 2/10

Worst episode ever of Midsomer Murders

[pjhawken · 2/10 · 25 June 2011]

This episode was without doubt the worst episode we have seen of the Midsomer Murders series. It stands out from all of the other episodes because we have rated most episodes as 7's and above - but we rated this episode a 2.

Overall the Midsomer Murders production team is very professional and produces episodes of a high standard so it is unbelievable that the Producers allowed this story to see the light of day and surely the cast should have said something during the shooting. We found the story was completely implausible and there were so many flaws in the development of the murder investigation it isn't worth singling out any.

We all have off-days

[tvfandme · 2/10 · 15 September 2023]

If ever you've screwed up at work and wondered if it means you've had a bad career, if ever you've made a mistake and worried it means you are a bad person, if ever you've disappointed your children and fretted that it means you are a terrible parent, this episode is for you, because it proves that even the best of us have our bad days. Midsomer Murders is a good, long-running show with fine actors and engaging characters and it has delighted millions of people around the world. Yet even it once made a jaw-droppingly horrible episode like this one. So go easy on yourself, because we all deserve a little mercy now and then.

Very disappointing.

[acunnington-49732 · 1/10 · 24 April 2021]

I gave up on this episode after about 20 minutes. Contrived plot with very shallow characters and a turgid screenplay.

Quite bad

[harrykivi · 2/10 · 22 November 2022]

"The Sword of Guillame" started the season on a decent note, but "The Made-to Measure Murders" was not good at all. "Blood on the Saddle" though is easily one the worst episodes of "Midsomer Murders". '

Let' s start with the good aspects.

. The music fits the scenery and there are scenes, which are amusing and charming, them mostly involving Barnaby and Jones-John Nettles and Jason Hughes try their best with the material they have. Despite the rest of the acting is not that good, there are some fine performances in the episode. Caroline Langrishe is solid as Susan Fincher, Richard Harrington and Emma Cooke are not bad either.

But....

. The direction, agreed, could have been a lot more interesting wth the episode feeling uninspired for the most part. The guest stars are mostly not very good too. Kika Markham, Justin Avoth are unfortunately very one-note and Daniel Ryan, who playes the killer, overacts quite a bit.

. The characters and the subplots are mediocre. The mystery lacks intrigue, charm and comes off as a laughable mess. The ending in particular falls flat. I agree with the previous reviewer that the Wild West does not fit "Midsomer Murders" at all.

Overall, one of the worst episodes of one of my favorite series.

2/10 HK.

Saddle sore rubbish

[jamesharrison-541-835462 · 2/10 · 15 April 2022]

A tedious script, riddled with cliches; ham acting that makes even the worst am-dram production look good; historically inaccurate confederate flag waving; cliched comments about, and stereotyped characterisation of, "gypos and diddycoys"; sexist attitudes regarding violence against women; out of place, over exaggerated bar room brawls in quiet English pubs (and beer tents); and a weird sepia sequence featuring Barnaby & Jones dressed as characters from the "Wild West" . . .

The episode was muddled, badly acted and lazy. It felt like it was signed off on a Friday afternoon when the production team was in a hurry to get home for the weekend.

"Blood On The Saddle" serves only to reveal the producers' own "dead man's hand" where it seems they've literally lost the plot.

Despite two stars for the countryside and horses, I suggest you give this MM a wide berth and ride swiftly onto the next episode, as this particular blood stained saddle only promises to give you a sore backside.

Just...awful

[sherondalewis-20531 · 3/10 · 19 June 2022]

Look, I love going into great detail about am episode, especially Midsomer but this right here? Just...nope. Bad. Sucks worse than the Made for Measure Murders. I have seen this episode a couple of times. Why? Because when I have pent up stress, I like to find something to yell at. Makes me feel better. And this episode (like the one mentioned before) is something worth yelling at. Because this one sucks. Hope I am not ban for saying that. The ONLY pros about this episode: Joyce is a better shooter than Tom and the exchange of her winning, "Well, you know my gun was jammed," he says and she pretty much says "Aww, too bad for you." Thought that was funny. Then, he tries to hit the witch in the pool. Was telling Joyce how to and with one hit, with her right hand (she is left handed) she hits the target! That was funny! And the look on his face was funny. And then, Tom, being petty and jealous, GIVES AWAY her 2 bears (that she named) to 2 kids. See..those were the highlights. And, Tom going down the slide of where the shooter was at. That was cute, too. And the jeans that Tom was wearing. Very nice bum. I said it, don't care.

These were the only thing about this damn episode I liked. Didn't care about the Murders nor the murderer or why they were dressed in Wild Wild West clothing and a shootout (he could have walked in the home and shot them up and kept going). Who wrote this mess? Love John, Jane and Jason.

Silly Fun in a Tortured Wild West

[zuzuspetals70000 · 5/10 · 24 April 2017]

As others have said, this isn't the best of "Midsomer Murders" but then again surely the ability to offer up consistently good stories should allow for one off show. Maybe my disappointment comes from being a native Westerner with deep roots in ranching and watching Brits play act at cowboys and Indians. There were far too many discrepancies - - cowboys wear jeans (usually Wranglers); posting in a Western saddle is bad form; Confederate flags don't fly here unless it's by a redneck with alt-right leanings and when they are displayed it's usually considered insulting; holsters are tied down, not flapping in the wind; not to mention the silly hat worn by Jack; then the dead man hitched to the horse holding the dead man's hand in cards (aces and eights from the hand Wild Bill Hickock drew and died over). We almost have every Wild West cliché from Billy the Kid to Wild Bill. It's a bit much especially with that gargantuan bullet sent with a death threat through the mail. And I haven't even touched on the shootout in the mock ghost town. Wyatt? The Earps get a mention, too.

To be fair I get annoyed with anachronistic activities that are done poorly. Like those ghastly "Medieval Dinner" restaurants from 20 odd years ago featuring King Henry VIII chomping on turkey legs. Wrong age, wrong king and completely wrong bird (but hunting swan isn't done anymore). But it was good for a laugh and proof that restaurateurs (American ones at any rate) shouldn't mix history and food.

I have to say someone on the show knows their animals though. There are always the most beautiful horses and dogs. As gorgeous as the English countryside which I loved when going to school in the UK.

So not the best show, it certainly has its distractions, but it's just silly fun in the end. And how can you not get a kick out of Tom Barnaby as Marshall Wyatt Earp complete with moustache? Well heeled for a gun fight and saving the day!

Racist Confederate Flags Everywhere

[jerry-70896 · 2/10 · 15 November 2021]

WTF....why confederate flags flying everywhere here? This was 2010 during the Obama presidentcy. I don't think it was a mistake, more like a statement by some bigoted crew members. Or maybe just a way to slight Americans. Whatever, still in very poor taste. Usually love this series but not this display of bigotry. Shame on them.

What a Mess!!!

[Hitchcoc · 2/10 · 28 May 2016]

OK Guys. We've all lost our imaginations. What kind of drivel can we come up with. I know. Let's cast a Western in the British countryside. We'll put it in the county of Texas and have skilled wrangler be the central figures. Oh, really. Another festival that Barnaby and Joyce end up at. There are recreations of the American West, and, of course, some murders. There is some kind of land grab going on and apparently the forces have been at odds for years. That's the stupid plot. There are people shooting all over the place. You would think that these Britisher's wouldn't know much about six guns, but somehow they have reincarnated the Marlboro man. There is a widow involved in all of this and she has some rights which I never figured out. Even when it is over, I'm not sure who won, exactly. Somehow, this show continues to this day, despite a clinker like this.