When an apocalyptic cult arms themselves with a huge stockpile of automatic weapons, things are never likely to end well. Nonetheless, the siege of Waco, which ended in a terrible fire resulting in the death of David Koresh and sixt followers, might have turned out better, if not for the gung-ho attitude of the law enforcement agencies. That's the take home message from 'Waco: Madman or Messiah', a documentary which reconstructs the events with the aid of testimony from witnesses and survivors. In places it's repetitive, and it would have benefitted from the participation of more senior members of the authorities to justify their decision making - it feels as if that part of the story is missing. One thing that's amazing is that several of the latter remain faithful to their former leader, even though he seems to have been a monster with no conventionally redeeming qualities, beyond, of course, his claim to be God. The broader message is the tragedy of a highly-armed society: the United States has no monopoly on lunactics, but there is something uniquely American about this story.
11 Reviews
Lurches from one extreme to the other
mat-fletcher22 August 2019
The producers went to great lengths to condemn the Davidians, repeating many of the falsehoods and smears that were used to initiate this debacle in the first place but they also try hard to be sympathetic to the children.
Not once did they seem to seem to question the principle concern with this event - The government invented a reason to raid this group of people and then they shot them and burned them alive and for what?
The government deployed a troop of M2 Bradely Armoured Fighting Vehicles, AFV's against a bunch of families, helicopters, snipers, about a battalion sized element of government agents against a bunch of bible bashing families who appeared to have been no danger to anyone.
About the only genuine crime that seems to have been carried out by Koresh was that he may have had improper relations with teenage girls. Why on earth then was he not arrested and tried before a jury of his peers? When did raiding a property, shooting first, bringing in tanks and burning them all alive become a proportional response?
Not once did they seem to seem to question the principle concern with this event - The government invented a reason to raid this group of people and then they shot them and burned them alive and for what?
The government deployed a troop of M2 Bradely Armoured Fighting Vehicles, AFV's against a bunch of families, helicopters, snipers, about a battalion sized element of government agents against a bunch of bible bashing families who appeared to have been no danger to anyone.
About the only genuine crime that seems to have been carried out by Koresh was that he may have had improper relations with teenage girls. Why on earth then was he not arrested and tried before a jury of his peers? When did raiding a property, shooting first, bringing in tanks and burning them all alive become a proportional response?
Sympathy for David Koresh
SteveCrook23 November 2018
Warning: Spoilers
This two part documentary has the effect of making me feel sympathetic for David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. Yes, Kotesh seems to be a religious extremist, but so many Americans are. The ATF and the FBI are showing themselves to be totally incompetent, and heavily armed incompetents are always dangerous. Everything they did was exceptionally foolish
Waco: Madman or Messiah
LOL101LOL8 February 2018
I remember this event well, shocking story, and it is good to see a doco like this that sits on the fence (to a point). This doco shows lots of stuff I had not seen before and the interviews with survivors from both sides made this for captivating viewing.
I am a Christian and know the Bible well enough to see and know that David Koresh was a false prophet/messiah, any one that knows or has read the Bible will know that God warns us about wolves in sheeps clothing, and David Koresh was just another one of them. Anyone that follows some one that claims he/she is the second coming of Christ should look at that person and compare them to Jesus, Jesus would not have multiple sexual relationships, Jesus would not drive around in a classic American muscle car, and I can come up with so many other points to show David Koresh was just another conman.
Now besides David Koresh being a fake, it does not take away the FBI/ATF got this completely wrong, they are directly responsible for the murder of many people. Watch Waco: The Rules of Engagement, as that clearly shows that the FBI/ATF murdered many people. Now I get it, the government wanted to check their weapons, check if David Koresh was having relationships with under age girls, and I agree they should have looked into what was happening, but the way they went about their jobs was as bad as you can go about it, causing the death of many children and people that were fooled by a madman, including several government agents.
Overall this 2 part doco is well done and shows both sides of the story. 10 out of 10.
For some reason IMDB shows I gave it a 1, I gave it a 10 out of 10 and is worth watching if you want to see the truth about the madman and the mistakes the FBI/ATF made.
I am a Christian and know the Bible well enough to see and know that David Koresh was a false prophet/messiah, any one that knows or has read the Bible will know that God warns us about wolves in sheeps clothing, and David Koresh was just another one of them. Anyone that follows some one that claims he/she is the second coming of Christ should look at that person and compare them to Jesus, Jesus would not have multiple sexual relationships, Jesus would not drive around in a classic American muscle car, and I can come up with so many other points to show David Koresh was just another conman.
Now besides David Koresh being a fake, it does not take away the FBI/ATF got this completely wrong, they are directly responsible for the murder of many people. Watch Waco: The Rules of Engagement, as that clearly shows that the FBI/ATF murdered many people. Now I get it, the government wanted to check their weapons, check if David Koresh was having relationships with under age girls, and I agree they should have looked into what was happening, but the way they went about their jobs was as bad as you can go about it, causing the death of many children and people that were fooled by a madman, including several government agents.
Overall this 2 part doco is well done and shows both sides of the story. 10 out of 10.
For some reason IMDB shows I gave it a 1, I gave it a 10 out of 10 and is worth watching if you want to see the truth about the madman and the mistakes the FBI/ATF made.
An Honest Review
generationofswine6 October 2020
Wow, this is shockingly fair. Fair as in it doesn't point fingers exclusively at Koresh and it doesn't point fingers exclusively at the ATF and the government. It takes time to cover BOTH sides of the conflict with the same grace and poise.
It's honestly the first Documentary on it that I have seen that doesn't totally blame Koresh. It's the first time that I have seen people come on and actually defend him. Don't get me wrong, he is still a wack job, but this is the first time I've seen anyone offer a defense for him, and a relatively good one.
It leaves you with the feeling that, yeah, they needed to take it down because of child abuse alone, but the ATF over-stepped it's boundaries to the point of violating their rights.
It leaves you with the feeling that both sides were absolutely wrong, and, honestly, you don't often get that with this subject.
It's honestly the first Documentary on it that I have seen that doesn't totally blame Koresh. It's the first time that I have seen people come on and actually defend him. Don't get me wrong, he is still a wack job, but this is the first time I've seen anyone offer a defense for him, and a relatively good one.
It leaves you with the feeling that, yeah, they needed to take it down because of child abuse alone, but the ATF over-stepped it's boundaries to the point of violating their rights.
It leaves you with the feeling that both sides were absolutely wrong, and, honestly, you don't often get that with this subject.
what a documentary!!!!!!!!
ops-5253530 January 2018
Well,ive seen a few docus evolving the waco incident,and ive been quite shocked every time, but this docu were just explosive,very informational,two sided if not even more sided.whats true i shall not tell,but as a documentary it is chillingly well constructed,the use of music enticing,and the way everybody were able to speak for themselves,amazing.do whatch it if you dare,its a thrilling true happening......after all.....
Absolutely gripping
nsrporfirio21 February 2018
This event had great media coverage not just in the USA, in Portugal we had the opportunity to follow the siege on TV.
I had 20 yo by that time, more or less the same age of most Branch Davidians, I followed it on the news and I can tell that this event stayed with me for all these years as one of the most dramatic and horrible things I have ever saw.
I tried to watch the mini series but it´s not as gripping as this amazing documentary that doesn´t take sides and efficientely show us both sides with real people and real emotions and that can not be paired by any tv show.
This is a great work from everyone involved and not an easy task for sure to bring up all of this memories with the survivors.
Congratulations not just for the superior work but also for one thing that remains after two days of watching the doco, its a doubt...
What if?
10/10
What if?
10/10
A Must Watch
emilynkarl24 August 2023
This docuseries is eye-opening to just how cruel our government can be to its own citizens. I was child when the ATF wrongly invaded the home of David Koresh, so I was only aware of one side of the story. This show shares the other side, the side of the Branch Davidians, and reveals why these agencies felt the need to hide their wrong doings.
All of the ATF and FBI agents who fired weapons or used deadly force of any kind should be in jail. And that especially goes for the leadership. Both agencies need their funding completely cut. The events shown in these episodes clearly demonstrates their massive overreach and how these agencies work for their own power and not the American people.
While I don't agree with the beliefs of the Branch Davidians or even those the Christianity, this series provided insight into how this group thought and functioned. The story is very said, but I think it's an important one to tell.
All of the ATF and FBI agents who fired weapons or used deadly force of any kind should be in jail. And that especially goes for the leadership. Both agencies need their funding completely cut. The events shown in these episodes clearly demonstrates their massive overreach and how these agencies work for their own power and not the American people.
While I don't agree with the beliefs of the Branch Davidians or even those the Christianity, this series provided insight into how this group thought and functioned. The story is very said, but I think it's an important one to tell.
FOX-News-style "fair and balanced" documentary about the Waco incident
lysergic-acid24 March 2019
The BBC typically produces pretty high quality documentaries. Unlike Discovery/History Channel, they tend to be more informational, better researched and less sensational.
Waco: Madman or Messiah starts off alright, providing well-corroborated background on the Branch Davidians and David Koresh. However, towards the end of part 1, things start going downhill. It starts with cheesy graphics and music to play up the Seven Seals nonsense that Koresh spouted. But what's really unforgiveable is how, in part 2, they turn a well-documented and heavily investigated event into a subjective, he-said/she-said, "pick your own facts" story.
Air time in part 2 is heavily skewed towards the Branch Davidians and their sympathizers who make multiple false claims. They do also interview a negotiator and a member of the tactical team. However, the false claims made by the Branch Davidians are never addressed, even on key facts like whether the ATF went in guns blazing and would have killed all the women and children if the Branch Davidians hadn't "defended themselves" as the Branch Davidians claim or if the Branch Davidians had shot the ATF first, causing them to return fire as they rescued their injured colleagues (several of whom died).
This is a really well studied and heavily litigated incident. So there would have been tons of evidence based on ballistics, the footage from numerous TV crews, police reports and interviews, etc. But instead of actually figuring out what happened, the BBC chose to leave out all the direct evidence, giving each side equal weight in the program.
They don't even mention the fact that the Brand Davidians started the fire (arson investigators found that the fire started simultaneously in three separate parts of the building, and arson detection dogs alerted to the presence of chemical accelerants at each of these locations). Contemporaneous news reports didn't have access to these facts, but decades later the BBC did and simply chose to conceal it to make their documentary more open-ended.
This whitewashing of the Branch Davidians as harmless religious eccentrics who were innocent victims of jackbooted government thugs is extremely dangerous. The documentary makers know full well how dangerous this is given that they showed footage of Timothy McVeigh, the KKK and other far-right anti-government crazies rallying in support of the Branch Davidians during the siege. But they still chose to promulgate the surviving Branch Davidians' false narrative.
Waco: Madman or Messiah starts off alright, providing well-corroborated background on the Branch Davidians and David Koresh. However, towards the end of part 1, things start going downhill. It starts with cheesy graphics and music to play up the Seven Seals nonsense that Koresh spouted. But what's really unforgiveable is how, in part 2, they turn a well-documented and heavily investigated event into a subjective, he-said/she-said, "pick your own facts" story.
Air time in part 2 is heavily skewed towards the Branch Davidians and their sympathizers who make multiple false claims. They do also interview a negotiator and a member of the tactical team. However, the false claims made by the Branch Davidians are never addressed, even on key facts like whether the ATF went in guns blazing and would have killed all the women and children if the Branch Davidians hadn't "defended themselves" as the Branch Davidians claim or if the Branch Davidians had shot the ATF first, causing them to return fire as they rescued their injured colleagues (several of whom died).
This is a really well studied and heavily litigated incident. So there would have been tons of evidence based on ballistics, the footage from numerous TV crews, police reports and interviews, etc. But instead of actually figuring out what happened, the BBC chose to leave out all the direct evidence, giving each side equal weight in the program.
They don't even mention the fact that the Brand Davidians started the fire (arson investigators found that the fire started simultaneously in three separate parts of the building, and arson detection dogs alerted to the presence of chemical accelerants at each of these locations). Contemporaneous news reports didn't have access to these facts, but decades later the BBC did and simply chose to conceal it to make their documentary more open-ended.
This whitewashing of the Branch Davidians as harmless religious eccentrics who were innocent victims of jackbooted government thugs is extremely dangerous. The documentary makers know full well how dangerous this is given that they showed footage of Timothy McVeigh, the KKK and other far-right anti-government crazies rallying in support of the Branch Davidians during the siege. But they still chose to promulgate the surviving Branch Davidians' false narrative.
Skews way too much in Vernon Howell's favor.
tsn-487303 September 2023
Warning: Spoilers
The first part is much more balanced, but it takes a sudden, screeching turn toward the Davidians favor in the second half. We are presented with the still blinded believers in the dead cult leader in the same light as if they still have some rational credibility, instead of those who would still be followers of Jim Jones or Charles Manson as they more properly are. Instead of being the delusional followers of an equally delusional twisted sociopath.
Then there are the biblical scholars who showed up on the radio program giving Vern a further excuse (as if he needed one) to yet again refuse to come out when he never had any intention to all along. They only added fuel to the fire. He had already lied once when he said he'd lead everyone out if his religious screed was played on national TV, but when it was he refused. He said his "commander in chief" now told him to wait. BULL! He'd been lying all along. He lied for a living and to keep his status as the cult leader. Besides he was soaking up the attention and spotlight in classic Borderline Personality Disorder fashion and was much too cowardly to come out to rightfully face the legal repercussions for all he'd done. The Seven Seals was just another distraction and there would have been more excuses after that. He was never, ever going to come out of there alive voluntarily and was always going to make sure as many of his followers died with him as possible. He was suicidal, but was going to put on as much of an egotistical circus show as he could, for as long as he could beforehand.
From the beginning to the end there is, was and always has been only one single person responsible for every single death in the whole Waco tragedy. And that person was a narcissistic Bible-beating lunatic cultist named Vernon Wayne Howell. His are the only blood soaked hands. If he hadn't been born extremely mentally twisted in the first place (or at all) none of this would have ever happened.
As for my sympathy for those who died, I save it for the innocent children. I have nothing but contempt for the parents who let them die with them. That includes several of those who appeared in this program, still trying to rationalize in their own minds the insanity of what they did and the innocent deaths they were complicit in, especially their own children's.
The adults, those who weren't shot and murdered by the others, all made their decision to burn with him (though he chose to shoot himself in the head instead rather than burn with them also) in a fire they set themselves, so I could care less about them. They got what they prayed for and deserved.
I also have no patience for the ones who say they wish they'd died in the fire too. I simply don't believe them. They're just plain lying. They had their chance to do it and they screwed even that up. Their "faith" is just as phony as they are. They all belonged to a suicidal cult and they turned out to be in the cowards wing.
Then there are the biblical scholars who showed up on the radio program giving Vern a further excuse (as if he needed one) to yet again refuse to come out when he never had any intention to all along. They only added fuel to the fire. He had already lied once when he said he'd lead everyone out if his religious screed was played on national TV, but when it was he refused. He said his "commander in chief" now told him to wait. BULL! He'd been lying all along. He lied for a living and to keep his status as the cult leader. Besides he was soaking up the attention and spotlight in classic Borderline Personality Disorder fashion and was much too cowardly to come out to rightfully face the legal repercussions for all he'd done. The Seven Seals was just another distraction and there would have been more excuses after that. He was never, ever going to come out of there alive voluntarily and was always going to make sure as many of his followers died with him as possible. He was suicidal, but was going to put on as much of an egotistical circus show as he could, for as long as he could beforehand.
From the beginning to the end there is, was and always has been only one single person responsible for every single death in the whole Waco tragedy. And that person was a narcissistic Bible-beating lunatic cultist named Vernon Wayne Howell. His are the only blood soaked hands. If he hadn't been born extremely mentally twisted in the first place (or at all) none of this would have ever happened.
As for my sympathy for those who died, I save it for the innocent children. I have nothing but contempt for the parents who let them die with them. That includes several of those who appeared in this program, still trying to rationalize in their own minds the insanity of what they did and the innocent deaths they were complicit in, especially their own children's.
The adults, those who weren't shot and murdered by the others, all made their decision to burn with him (though he chose to shoot himself in the head instead rather than burn with them also) in a fire they set themselves, so I could care less about them. They got what they prayed for and deserved.
I also have no patience for the ones who say they wish they'd died in the fire too. I simply don't believe them. They're just plain lying. They had their chance to do it and they screwed even that up. Their "faith" is just as phony as they are. They all belonged to a suicidal cult and they turned out to be in the cowards wing.
Tries its best...
benosborne1-946-21571822 January 2022
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